Pay Up Westboro Baptist Church!
Did you ever think that for every bad action in the world there will come several opposing good actions to bring the scales of good and evil into balance. I believe that sometimes the scales of good need to be tipped just a little bit more in the world when it comes to our troops. Especially, in times when one of those soldiers is killed in the line of duty. At times like those, a family is devastated and lost in grief.
I hate to even write about the Westboro Baptist Church because I honestly believe that they are a group of radicals hiding behind the cloaks of their church with their message of hatred against homosexuals. Well, some nimrod in that organization had an epiphany that the only way to spread that hate message was to blame God first and point it out that God killed your son or daughter serving in our military for a reason. Showing up at military funerals and protesting that your spouse, your son, your daughter, or even a parent died while in service to America because God hates homosexuals was not a bright idea. Westboro Baptist Church disgusts me with their actions. How you can call yourself a Christian and think that selling hate at a funeral makes you a better person or more God like is beyond my mental comprehension. I’m not being anti Christian, I’m just pointing out how stupid and self centered these people are.
Tip the scales of right and wrong back to the right side and along comes the Patriot Guard Riders. This is a group of bikers and just regular folks that believe in supporting our troops and proudly show up by invitation of the family, to support a fallen son or daughter of America’s military. They don’t ask for any money, many of the Patriot Guard Riders will drive thousands of miles at their own expense to be there for the funeral to legally block the protestors from the families view. Big American flags and bikes lining both sides of the street is a sight to see that I am sure the parents or spouses of the fallen soldier appreciate more than anyone will ever know. Law enforcement officers tend to have a little more respect for people with a positive message than folks with a very negative message at a military funeral. Gee, that took a ton of brain activity to figure out.
Tipping the scales a little bit further for the good side and we have this court case by a parent against the Westboro Baptist Church by the Associated press in the Houston Chronicle…
Church that pickets military funerals ordered to pay $2.9 million
By ALEX DOMINGUEZ
Associated PressBALTIMORE — A grieving father won a $2.9 million verdict today against a fundamentalist Kansas church that pickets military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation’s tolerance of homosexuality.
Albert Snyder of York, Pa., sued the Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members staged a demonstration at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.
Church members routinely picket funerals of military personnel killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, carrying signs such as “Thank God for dead soldiers” and “God hates fags.”
A number of states have passed laws regarding funeral protests, and Congress has passed a law prohibiting such protests at federal cemeteries. But the Maryland lawsuit is believed to be the first filed by the family of a fallen serviceman. - Houston Chronicle
Three words, IT’S ABOUT TIME! I can hear the Amen coming from all my brother and sister Patriot Guard Riders over this decision. My own personal applause goes out to the father of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder. Albert Snyder, you sir deserve this court decision and from my family to yours I offer my thanks for your sons service to our nation and of course my heart felt prayers over the loss of your son.
Thank you Mr. Albert Snyder.
Papamoka
Proud Member of the Patriot Guard Riders
Cross posted at Papamoka Straight Talk
October 31st, 2007 at 9:51 pm
If I were the family, I wouldn’t be spending their millions just yet. The Church will appeal and likely, no, very likely win. You see, we have this thing in this country, it’s called the first amendment and it protects things like: (a) religious expression, (b) freedom of speech, (c) peaceful assembly. I can see no scenario under which the Phelpses do not win on appeal.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:03 pm
By the way, last I read, the award was closer to $11 million. Hardly matters, there’s no way the Church/family has any where near one tenth of one percent of that to cough up if push comes to shove.
November 1st, 2007 at 4:20 am
I’m no legal expert, but I’m pretty sure the first amendment does not protect harassment, and I would think hate speech at a funeral would fall into that category.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:34 am
Mike, I believe you’re right - I’ve always been told that under the law, verbal abuse is actually assault (if there is physical contact it becomes battery, and injury or use of a weapon makes it aggravated battery.) These people are extremely sick and on the one hand, they really are to be pitied, but on the other, the rest of us have every right to protect ourselves from their sick acting out. Kind of like when Old Yeller was tied to the tree after he got rabies - you didn’t hate him, but you damn sure weren’t going to let him bite you.
My younger brother is a member of the Patriot Guard Riders, and he’s informed me that you don’t have to be a motorcyclist to join - they welcome people in cars too - so I think I’ll join up. He’s been on several escort rides in the months since he joined, not only for funerals, but also to welcome returning Reserve and Guard units. That’s gotta be a good thing even for those of us who detest this war.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:05 am
Mike and LJ, you’re absolutely right. There are limits to the speech and assembly. What these guys are doing is harrassment, unpeaceable assembly, and incitement to violence. If this scumbag wins on appeal, I would be shocked.
JMJ
November 1st, 2007 at 2:55 pm
The Patriot Guard Riders is a great groop of folks LJ and I think you would really enjoy being a member. Check out the website and join. Just to back up your brother, you do not have to ride a bike to be a member.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I hope the ACLU jumps in and defends the Wesboro Church. That way I can hate them some more.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:33 pm
I rather hope they do, too. They’re pretty effective at protecting civil rights and, to me, protecting the right of free speech is more important than shutting down obnoxious speakers.
November 1st, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Let me just say this. Free speech at a public event is one thing, but a funeral is generally a private, and painful affair. Regardless of who has died, who really thinks it’s ok to harass the mourners?
November 1st, 2007 at 7:16 pm
How private is a graveyard? Mourners do not rent out the whole graveyard for their private use. Other people visit other graves, sometimes quite near to an ongoing grave-side service. Most people, of course, have the common courtesy to act in a manner that is respectful of the mourners at the service but there’s nothing private about them. Painful, yes. Worthy of treatment by others as though it were a private affair, yes but they aren’t private affairs. They’re public. Right out in front of God and everybody.
It should go without saying that I do not think it “ok” to harass mourners. But the word “harass” is a loaded and imprecise term. What constitutes harassment and what constitutes the expression of opinions that most of us find offensive? I would just as soon the Phelpses took a one way trip to Mars. They’re obnoxious, fanatical, hateful and give a pretty good imitation of being downright nuts but here in America, in my humble opinion, saying that God hates fags and that our soldiers are dying because America is overly solicitous of gays is what is commonly known as a point of view and political speech, however on the fringe it may be and, again, in my humble opinion, the Phelpses have the same right to express that opinion as I have to express this one. I consider this akin to neo-Nazis marching in Skokie, IL. I despise neo-Nazism. I hate that a peaceful community with a high population of Jewish Holocaust survivors had to be subjected to their hatefulness, just as I hate that soldiers’ families would have to put up with the Phelpses’ crap but that’s the thing about the first amendment: if it only protects popular speech, it’s useless. It’s only valuable if it protects speech most of us place no value on.
At least that’s my viewpoint.
November 1st, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Jersey,
You mention “verbal abuse” as being assault. From all I can tell, the Phelpses are not verbally abusing anyone at the funeral, not even the soldier. They are expressing the opinion that (a) God hates fags and (b) dead soldiers are God’s punishment for America’s acceptance of gays. They are not, so far as I can tell, calling the slain, the one being buried, names nor in any way mounting a verbal attack upon the mourners. They are expressing the opinion that the death of the soldier being buried is the judgment of God upon our nation. I don’t see how that constitutes verbal abuse consistent with a charge of assault.
I’m not a lawyer. I can always be wrong. I don’t think I am in this instance and any law making what the Phelpses are doing illegal would, in my opinion, be unconstitutional.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Thank you. Nowhere did I say a graveyard was private. I one hundred percent believe in freedom of speech, but when it interferes with other people’s freedoms is where I, and most people, draw the line.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Mike,
No, you didn’t say that the graveyard was private. You said that a funeral was a private affair. I dispute that, at least as a legal matter. No affair is private that one does not take steps to exclude others from. Hence my comment that people do not rent out the entire graveyard so as to exclude others from being within view of the affair. Hence, it is not private. It is public. That’s my point.
I understand your point about drawing the line at freedom of speech that interferes with other people’s freedoms. However, freedom of speech is an enumerated constitutional right. The freedom to not have a funeral disturbed by free speakers is not. It is a societal convention, not a constitutionally protected right. The Phelpses are, no question about it, rudely flouting society’s conventions regarding the respect that members of polite society owe to those who are grieving and, clearly, the Phelpses are no members of polite society. However, they are Americans exercising their constitutionally protected right.
Anyway, I sense that we’re not going to agree about this and I’ve made my point as well as I know how.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Me too.
November 2nd, 2007 at 3:25 am
Craig,
What did the Martians ever do to you to deserve Fred Phelps being foistered on them?
Could the churches sue on God’s behalf for slander? I mean, the Phelps’ are accusing Him of killing American soldiers for al Qaida. That’s got to be damaging to His reputation. Slander isn’t protected speech, after all.
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:19 am
Also, just found this, but it seems there may be more than just privacy at a funeral involved.
http://guntotingliberal.com/?p=2069
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:07 am
I didn’t mention “verbal abuse,” Craig. That’s not the issue. For me, it’s the funeral setting and that alone that makes what the Phelps’ are doing wrong. 34 states have passed laws specifically to curtail protesting at funerals. It’s just obnoxious beyond the scope of 1st Amendment protection. It is inciting violence. If these people protested at one of my loved one’s funeral, I’d take up a baseball bat and start trying to kill each and every single last one of them. I mean that. Actually, I’m astonished that just such an incident hasn’t occured yet.
JMJ
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:09 am
Paul,
The Martians gave us War of the Worlds, which, in it’s original radio version scared the shit out of a bunch of people who didn’t realize that what they were hearing was a radio play and not news and which, in its latest movie version is the lamest excuse for an alien monster movie ever made. They deserve the Phelpses. :^)
As for the GTL article, stick figures? No thanks. One of our Supreme Court justices said, in an obscenity case long ago, that he cannot define obscenity but he knows it when he sees it…I’m pretty sure two stick figures on a sign isn’t what he had in mind. I’m with Eugene Volokh who is quoted in that link as saying:
I’m one of those libertarians who thinks that words are vitally linked to thought such that if you control words, you control thoughts. George Orwell, you might have read, wrote a bit about that in his novel 1984. Double plus ungood.
Jersey,
You’re right. That was LJ. Sorry for the confusion.
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:50 am
Craig,
I have indeed read 1984. But if the signs were Semper FI Fags, that could well be slanderous if the serviceman was not gay. If nothing else, surely God could sue for claiming he’s killing US servicemen. That’s got to be injurous to his reputation.
My reactions are pretty much the same as GTL’s. First reaction: Yay, someones got the pondscum (apologies to all pondscum). Then concern for the implications.
I actually agree with you that being an insulting, offensive, arsehole whose words make you want to pummel them into the pavement is protected as part of free speech. But, like most people, I wish there was something that oculd be done to stop them.