Property Rights vs. Keeping Them Icky Brown People Out
Cognitive Dissonance is that uneasy feeling you get when you have two deeply-held beliefs that conflict with each other.
Tens of millions of Americans will reflexively yell out “Property Rights!” whenever an endangered species needs to be protected or a business owner has to comply with safety regulations. And a lot of these same people also think illegal immigration is the root of all of America’s problems, and the government needs to do whatever it takes to keep THEM out. Mass searches and deportations, building a huge fence along the U.S.-Mexican border — whatever it takes to keep those slimy ethnic creatures out of our country — do it!
Here comes the cognitive dissonance. This could be a wedge that splits conservatives into two bitterly divided camps.
The Homeland Security Department wants to complete 370 miles of border fencing by the end of 2008. A lot of property owners in Texas and Arizona don’t want this fence running through their property. And Homeland Security is threatening to confiscate the property of any landowner who doesn’t cooperate.
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said “vee can do ziss zee easy vay or zee hard vay The door is still open to talk, but it’s not open for endless talk.”
Juan Salinas, the county judge of Hidalgo County, Texas, said: “I tell you, on this one issue, the Farm Bureau, the United Farm Workers, Democrats and Republicans, white, black, brown, everybody is against the border fence. It just doesn’t make sense. We’ve been trying to talk to them about using other ways. It’s a disappointment that, again, the Department of Homeland Security is not listening to local taxpayers.”
Local people are opposed to the fence for cultural, economic and environmental reasons. The Rio Grande is the only source of fresh water for a lot of ranchers and this fence would cut off their access to it. And the local economies depend on cross-border traffic. It doesn’t just flow one way — many Americans do volunteer work south of the border and lots of extended families live on both sides of the border. Twenty years ago we were urging the Soviet Union to tear down the Berlin Wall; now we’re planning to build one.
OK, Righties — which is it? Which side are you on — the KGB Homeland Security Department, or the “property rights” and “local autonomy” that you’re always screaming about? Well???
December 10th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Tom
I rest my case on this one…
December 10th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Steve
Self portrait?
December 11th, 2007 at 12:01 am
I’m one of those guys who thinks government should stay off my property, for the most part. That said, I am also one of those guys who recognizes that one of the fundamental duties of the government is to protect the border. This is a rare occasion wherein I agree with taking enough property from these property owners to build the fence, and provide an easement large enough for law enforcement or military vehicles to maneuver and protect the border from these criminal alien invaders.
As for shutting off the Rio Grande, barriers can be put into place that will deter criminal alien crossings, but still allow the flow of water. No one has advocated putting a dam across the Rio Grande. This is a red herring being offered up by criminal alien sympathizers!
The same is true for cross border traffic. The law requires entry into the United States through designated ports of entry. The border fence forces honest people to enter and exit the US the right way.
Oh, and just so you don’t think I am against “brown” people, I think we should also put up a fence along the northern border with Canada as well. Criminal aliens come in from there too. Indeed, a terrorist was apprehended attempting to come in from Vancouver with plans and equipment to blow up LAX. Anyone remember that one?
December 11th, 2007 at 6:03 am
“Unrestricted immigration is a dangerous thing — look at what happened to the Iroquois.” Garrison Kellor
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Anyone who thinks a fence will do a damn thing to stop illegal immigration is an idiot.
JMJ
December 11th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Cut off the Welfare,the free healthcare, the free education and fine the companies that hire them .
Maybe we just need to actually enforce immigration laws. Like if you are here illegally it’s time to leave.
Why do we make this more diffucult than it has to be?
December 11th, 2007 at 9:01 am
JMJ,
Fences will keep honest people honest.
December 11th, 2007 at 9:32 am
[…] In order to keep brown people from crossing the border, property owners are more than happy to let t… a) True b) […]
December 11th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Lisa
Since greater enforcement will cost more money and we are presently running a deficit, have you written your representatives that you support higher taxes to cure the immigration policy?
December 11th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Chris I am sure it won’t cost any more than the taxes going to illegals now for schoolong,healthcare and welfare. We should look to cutting off that stuff first which should free up more money for immigrartion policies. Or do you prefer your tax dollars go to supporting their free services instead?
December 11th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Actually the congress in 2006 passed the border security act that calls for 700 miles of fencing. It is law to build the fence. From NPR
“October 26, 2006 · President Bush signs the Border Security Act, a new law that emphasizes enforcement over reform of the nation’s immigration system.
The act’s key provision is a new 700-mile fence, planned for the southern border with Mexico.”
As far as taking the land the government has done this countless time for roads or other projects. That they have the right is uncontested. Is it right? That depends on the cause. The taking of land for a shopping mall came under criticism a few years back and is an example of government taking imminent domain too far IMO.
Also, you have to ask if land along the border is owned by the government already. I know that in my subdivision a part of my front yard actually belongs to the city for future road expansion or sidewalks. I maintain it and have planted trees but if they decide to build a sidewalk they can and will and my trees will be gone.
As far a supporting higher taxes for greater security I would have to say that border security is the second highest priority the government should have. National security being number one, infrastructure being three.
All other programs should be considered only after these basic needs are met. So the real question should be which programs should we cut in order to pay for security? If you do not feel any shoud be cut you would have to ask yourself (or your congressperson) do you want to raise your taxes to save the National endowment of the arts, NPR or PBS or one of the many many other non essential government programs. Perhaps a small reduction in the rate of growth for all of them. There is no need for new taxes for essential programs.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
“Fences will keep honest people honest.”
IM, that’s just stupid. If by “honest” you mean “legal” aliens, the fence would be irrelevent to them. If by “keep” you mean the fence will actually do anything to stop illegal immigration, then you are the naive, pie-eyed, rightwing moonbat who ever lived.
Lisa, with the passage of NAFTA cheap subsidized American agro flooded the Mexican markets, driving the farmers off their land, and so that now, today, 70% of American agro workers are “illegal” aliens, and you, the most unChristian person I know, wants to take away their what little services they get. 2/3rds of “illegals” pay payroll taxes, but none get any benefits from it. They all pay all the other taxes, but you think they should get nothing in return. They get no “welfare,” so on that you are just your usual ignorant self. They get very little of anything else, and when it comes to education and healthcare - they pay just like everyone else. Truly you must just hate brown people and their children. I guess why that’s okay to mass-murder them overseas.
Manapp,
“If you do not feel any shoud be cut you would have to ask yourself (or your congresspers on) do you want to raise your taxes to save the National endowment of the arts, NPR or PBS or one of the many many other non essential government programs. Perhaps a small reduction in the rate of growth for all of them.”
If you think that would save enough money to fund a workable, functional immigration system, than you simply have no idea what your government spends, on what, and how much. This ranks up there with such astoundingly stupid comments as ‘But if we just stopped foreign aid,’ or ‘We have to cut welfare!.’ There simply is not nearly enough money there to make a dent in anything other than your lust to see American culture further deteriorate into the steaming pile of low-brow ugliness that it is already becoming.
JMJ
December 11th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Jersey they only pay taxes if they are on the books. Since when does payroll taxes pay for healthcare and education? Last time I checked schooling was paid for by homeowners and healthcare is not free. Southern California hospitals have 7000 illegal immigrant births per year and they never get paid for it. So dn’t act all righteous by saying they pay for the services they get. You know that’s BS just like the rest of us know it.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.
From 2006
Today, the President sent Congress a request for $1.948 billion in emergency funding to help secure America’s
borders. The request includes funding for the first 1,000 of 6,000 new border patrol agents that will be deployed in the next
two years and the resources to train them, the temporary deployment of up to 6,000 National Guard troops to assist the
Border Patrol with surveillance and logistics, new border security technology and infrastructure, and 4,000 new detention
beds.
It still looks like it would require more money
December 11th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Good I would rather they use it to secure our borders . And the law that if your children are born here gives them immediate citizenship is an old law that was used for the slaves it’s just that everyone is afraid to say it.
Plus why again do you think an average of 7000 illiegal immigrants are giving birth here yearly?
December 11th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
be very careful in creating duality. you know the us vs. them.
The world is not comprehensible, but it is embraceable: through the embracing of one of its beings.
— Martin Bube
December 11th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Lisa, 2/3rds of “illegal aliens” pay payroll taxes - that’s Social Security, Medicare, unemployment, and wage withholding. Look it up so you don’t look silly in public. All “illegal” aliens pay property taxes and sales taxes and with the federal withholding that pays for schools and reimbursement to the hospitals. I know you don’t like brown people. Why not just come out and admit it rather than lie about them?
JMJ
December 11th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
You are so full of it Jersey. Next time you get some time go sit in your local social service facility fo the day.
When you have 3 and four families in one household there is only one property tax being paid.
maybe you should take a drive into some of those neighborhoods and see how many satelite dishes are on the houses and how the driveways suddenly turn into parking lots.
And for your info we all pay payroll taxes and that doesn’t include your and my healthcare or public school education.
Where do you facts come from your head?
As a matter of fact I like brown people better than I like liberals.
December 11th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
How many families in your neighborhood have 5 and 6 families living in houses. How many times does your wife go to the store and has to walk through 50 people waiting at a hiring station and she gets harrased and whistled at?
http://www.immigrationprocon.org/documents/alcorntaxillegals.pdf
December 11th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
lisa, a liberal is just a conservative who has been hugged. how would you like it if you had to live three families to a house? do you know how property taxes are assessed. it is not based on the number of persons living in the home but on fair market value. would you believe the property is probably rented and the land lord is setting the rent at a rate which covers his taxes, which really means the renter is paying the taxes. no most of them don’t have heath insurance and how would you feel if your children did not have heath insurance? when their children get sick they wait until they are really sick and go to the emergency room. Property taxes, which are paid by the renter is the primary source of public school funding. yes, there are frequently lots of old cars in the driveway because they have to get to work. i am not trying to defend Jersey, but really these folks are just getting by and your lack of compassion is disturbing. hope you don’t ever hit a streak of bad luck, because one result will be edification.
December 11th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Lisa
So once agian your support of something is limited to blogging. Not a very deep commitment.
December 11th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
They may live 3-4 families to a house but why do they own 40 inch flat screen TV’s, have the best soccer gear on Sundays at the park on their day off and pretty much bust their ass doing the jobs they do to pay for that shit. They are here for the money and only the money. They live like they do not because they are poor or only earn minimum wage… They live like that to save as much money as they can to send back to Mexico. Money coming back home from the US is the number 2 influence on the Mexican economy next to oil. We won’t let them have bank accounts because we won’t let them have ID’s to get one because they are illegal. American banks would guarantee up to 100K deposit insurance on all that money but the FTC won’t let them bank here. So they cash all those checks at Western Union and they send that money.
So if we’re not going to make easy for them to work, live and bank… why do we let them come here in the first place? You either go the whole way and build a fence or you let them all stay and keep on coming. Give em their ID’s so we can at least let them bank here.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:12 am
JMJ,
Fences keep honest people honest. I live in southern California, and I hear regularly that there have been incursions by Mexican military, as well as their Federal Police, across the border. What I hear, is that they “didn’t know” they had crossed the border, even though they were caught with GPS units on their persons and in their vehicles. If we build a fence, then those “honest” Mexican soldiers and police officers wouldn’t make the mistake of “accidentally” crossing the border. The same could be said of the poor, hard working people who went looking for a job at a machiladora in Mexico, only to find work in the US on a farm, or meat packing plant! They didn’t realize they had crossed the border illegally, right? Build a fence, so that they have to consciously decide to illegally cross our border. It shows intent and makes it easier to get them deported.
As for public assistance, are you aware that current law requires LEGAL residents to be financially solvent, or risk being removed from the US? People wanting to get an immigrant visa the right way must either demonstrate financial solvency, or be sponsored by a company or an individual with the ability to keep the intended immigrant OFF public assistance for a minimum of five years! Is it fair to have this requirement for the immigrant who went about getting the green card the right way, yet allow criminal aliens to get unlimited public assistance? I say it is not fair!
I know your response to my last argument already. “I know of lots of legal residents on public assistance!” I understand that this is not widely enforced, but it is the law, and at any time the government could go after those people and deport them if they chose to do so. I hope they do and the sooner they do it the better!
December 12th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Lisa and IM, everything I said is true, but you refuse to accept it, or even look it up for yourself. I sincerely believe that you are just racists who will rationalize anything to hide that fact. It’s pathetic. If you want to debate with the facts, that’s fine. But if you want to lie about the immgrants and come up with stupid, irrelevent, pointless slogans like “fences keep people honest,” then just go burn a cross somewhere. There are plenty of serious issues regarding illegal immigration. You two are just too silly to deal with them.
JMJ
December 12th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Jersey racist has nothing to do with it. Why do you insist we be the HMO to the world and yet our own citizens get their checks garnished if they can’t pay for medical?
Obviously you don’t know anyone who works in a social service office. I now 2 and the stroy is the same as it has been for 20 yeras.My sister in law was a nurse in charge of an ER and there were mucho illegal non paying people having babies. Oh but their income taxes were paying for it. I get it.
Did you know it cost the average Californian family 1200.00 a year to help support illegal immigrants? Here’s a thought why don’t you send 100 a month to California to help out.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:22 am
JMJ, you said look it up so I did. Here is a study of cost vs. revenue in regards illegal and legal aliens:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
The lead paragraph:
“This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.”
My comment about the taxes above was in response to Christopher insisting that if anyone REALLY supports anything (like the war or border security) we have to call our congressperson and demand a tax increase. His contention being that we are only paying lip service to ideas unless we are willing to sacrifice our dollars to the great tax god known as the Federal government. He is not understanding of the huge amounts we already give (or tithe if you prefer). Here is his question to Lisa:
“Lisa
Since greater enforcement will cost more money and we are presently running a deficit, have you written your representati ves that you support higher taxes to cure the immigration policy?”
He reinforces it with this comment:
“Lisa
So once agian your support of something is limited to blogging. Not a very deep commitment.”
My response was that border security trumps most of the programs the government is currently spending our money on, like NPR, PBS, the NEA or other non essential programs. If that is not enough money, cut more of these BS programs (the other nonessential programs part) the government should not be involved in anyway.
Pay attention to the comments old man.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:46 am
We are among the least taxed people in the world. So do not say we are paying our fair share. If we were there would be no federal deficits.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:50 am
And as long as were mentioning things that should be cut. Lets cut all funding for the war in iraq. Huge savings in money and lives.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Lisa,
“Illegal” immigrants do get emergency room services like everyone else. That is an issue. It especially hits particular regions where immigration is high, but the tax base is low (border cities and farm regions). Something has to be done to offset those costs. If the people were legalized, that would pretty much fix that. Also, the federal government has to pony up for the costs since it is a federal border problem. Maintaining the racist status qou, or simply denying services would both compaound the problem and be so sleazy as to make David Duke look like a liberal fellow.
Manapp, I know you don’t know this so let me fill you in. CIS is a branch off FAIR, the virulently racist anti-immigration group founded by white supremecist John Tanton. You should read about these people before you go citing their racist rhetoric.
JMJ
December 12th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I never said to deny them emergency care Jersey but again I am specifically speaking about those who work off the books and don’t contribute anything. So the government has to pony up? And they get the money from where?
You have a big problem with differentiating Immigration and Illegal Immigration. Some ears have walls.
December 12th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
lisa…”who work off the books and don’t contribute anything.” what the hell are you talking about? what is it about the word “work” do you not understand?
December 12th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Rube it would just take too long to explain it to you especially when you don’t want to know the facts.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
JMJ,
As I said before, I live in southern California. I see criminal aliens everyday. I talk with Border Patrol Agents who arrest people who cross the border illegally. I’ve heard first hand accounts of border incursions by Mexican soldiers and Mexican Federal Police. I’m not giving you irrelevant slogans, I’m giving you the honest truth! A border fence will serve as a warning that they are about to cross into the United States. They must then make the choice to climb over the fence, thus violating the law under Title 8 United States Code section 1182(a)(6)(A)(i) and Title 8 United States Code section 1325.
I am also right on the part about being a public charge. If you don’t believe me, here is a link to the Cornell University Law School, which has the United States Code online for anyone to view. They may ask for a donation, but it is not required to conduct research.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sup_01_8_10_12_20_II.html
Pay particular attention to the following sections: Part II, Section 1182(a)(4) and Part IV, Section 1227(a)(5). These sections relate to being denied admission for being a public charge, as well as being removable after entry as a legal resident alien, if the resident alien becomes a public charge within five years. Oh, and the part about sponsors can be found in Part II, Section 1183a.
If you don’t believe me about the requirement to only enter the US at designated ports of entry, while you are looking up the public charge section, take a look at Part II, Section 1182(a)(6)(A)(i) and Part VIII, Section 1325.
It isn’t about racism. The law applies whether the criminal alien is from Central America, South America, Canada, Mexico, Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, or Antarctica!
And please, explain to me how legalizing these criminal aliens will fix the problem of criminal aliens being on public assistance. I’m not following the logic!
One more point about public assistance, I have a friend who is a US Citizen living outside of California. My friend is a college student and has no medical insurance. She has a condition that requires her to get a blood transfusion, but she cannot afford to pay for the transfusion out of pocket. She cannot get public assistance, because she and her husband had once had an IRA account. Even though they cashed that IRA out to pay for their college, they do not qualify for public assistance. A criminal alien living in the same state with the same condition would have no problem getting public assistance. Tell me how that is fair!
December 12th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Rube Cretin,
When one is working “off the books,” that means that the employer is paying that person, but the IRS and the Social Security Administration aren’t being told about it, so they don’t collect taxes on that money. You may have heard the phrase stated as being paid “under the table.” The meanings are the same. Hope that clarifies things for you.
December 13th, 2007 at 6:42 am
Working off the books is not just an illegal alien problem. Many american born also work off the books.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Yeah Chris but let them try to get public assistance.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Lisa
You think that if they are working off the books they don’t go to the emergency room for health care? Or pehaps trying to cheat SS or welfare?
December 13th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
If they are legal citizens then they have a right to the services.
Again you are Jersey have a mental block between legal and Illegal citizens.
You want us to be the HMO to the world?